The Poṭṭhapāda Sutta - About Poṭṭhapāda

1. The Matter of Poṭṭhapāda the Wanderer

Thus have I heard: At one time, the Blessed One was dwelling in Sāvatthī, in Jeta's Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika's Park. At that time, Poṭṭhapāda the wanderer was residing in the Mallikā's Park with a large assembly of wanderers, about three hundred in number.

Then, in the morning, the Blessed One dressed, took his bowl and robe, and entered Sāvatthī for alms.

Then it occurred to the Blessed One: It is too early to wander for alms in Sāvatthī.

Perhaps I should visit the place where Poṭṭhapāda the wanderer is staying.

So, the Blessed One went to where Poṭṭhapāda the wanderer was.

At that time, Poṭṭhapāda the wanderer was sitting with a large assembly of wanderers, engaged in various kinds of lowly talk, such as talk of kings, robbers, ministers, armies, fears, battles, food, drink, clothes, beds, garlands, scents, relatives, vehicles, villages, towns, cities, countries, women, heroes, street-fights, tales of the dead, tales of diversity, tales of the world, and tales of the sea.

Poṭṭhapāda the wanderer saw the Blessed One coming from afar and arranged his assembly to be quiet: Be quiet, sirs, make no noise.

Here comes the ascetic Gotama.

He likes quiet and praises quiet.

Perhaps if he finds our assembly quiet, he may deem it worthy to approach.

After saying this, the wanderers fell silent.

Then the Blessed One approached Poṭṭhapāda the wanderer.

Poṭṭhapāda the wanderer said to the Blessed One: Come, venerable sir, welcome to the Blessed One.

It has been long since the Blessed One took the opportunity to come here.

Please, venerable sir, sit down; this seat is prepared.

The Blessed One sat down on the prepared seat.

Poṭṭhapāda the wanderer took a lower seat and sat to one side.

The Blessed One said: What were you discussing just now, Poṭṭhapāda, and what was the topic of conversation that you were engaged in just before I arrived?

1.1.

The Discussion on the Cessation of Perception

Poṭṭhapāda the wanderer replied to the Blessed One: The discussion we were having just now will not be difficult for the Blessed One to engage in.

In recent days, when various ascetics and brahmins were gathered in the hall of curiosity, a discussion arose on the cessation of perception: How is the cessation of perception achieved?

Some said, Perception arises and ceases in a person without cause or condition.

When it arises, one is perceptive; when it ceases, one is not.

Others explained the cessation of perception differently.

Another said, It is not so.

Perception is the self of a person, which comes and goes.

When it comes, one is perceptive; when it goes, one is not.

Others explained the cessation of perception differently.

Another said, It is not so.

There are ascetics and brahmins with great powers who can make perception arise and cease in a person.

When they make it arise, one is perceptive; when they make it cease, one is not.

Others explained the cessation of perception differently.

Another said, It is not so.

There are deities with great powers who can make perception arise and cease in a person.

When they make it arise, one is perceptive; when they make it cease, one is not.

Others explained the cessation of perception differently.

Then it occurred to me: Ah, surely the Blessed One, the Well-Gone One, is skilled in these matters.

The Blessed One is skilled, the Blessed One knows regarding the cessation of perception.

How, venerable sir, is the cessation of perception achieved?

Is it so?

1.2. Discussion on the Cessation of Perception with a Cause

There, Poṭṭhapāda, those ascetics and brahmins who say:

Perception arises in a person without cause and condition, and also ceases without cause and condition,

are completely wrong from the start.

Why is that?

Because, Poṭṭhapāda, perception in a person arises and ceases with cause and condition.

A certain training leads to the arising of perception, and a certain training leads to the cessation of perception.

And what is that training?

The Blessed One said:

Here, Poṭṭhapāda, a Tathāgata arises in the world, accomplished, fully enlightened …

A disciple goes forth, practices the holy life, and becomes accomplished in virtue …

When these five hindrances are abandoned within him, he experiences joy arising in himself.

From joy comes delight; with a delighted mind, the body becomes tranquil; with a tranquil body, he feels pleasure; with a pleasurable mind, his mind becomes concentrated.

Being secluded from sensual pleasures and unwholesome states, he enters and remains in the first jhāna, which has directed and sustained attention, with pīti and pleasure born of seclusion.

His earlier perception of sensual pleasures ceases.

At that time, there arises the perception of pīti and pleasure born of seclusion.

Thus, one training leads to the arising of perception, and another training leads to its cessation.

This is the training, the Blessed One said.

Again, Poṭṭhapāda, with the stilling of directed and sustained attention, a disciple enters and remains in the second jhāna, which has internal confidence and unification of mind, without directed and sustained attention, with pīti and pleasure born of concentration.

His earlier perception of pīti and pleasure born of seclusion ceases.

At that time, there arises the perception of pīti and pleasure born of concentration.

Thus, one training leads to the arising of perception, and another to its cessation.

This is the training, the Blessed One said.

Again, Poṭṭhapāda, with the fading away of pīti, he abides equanimous, mindful, and clearly aware,

feeling pleasure with the body; he enters and remains in the third jhāna, of which the noble ones say: He has a pleasant abiding who has equanimity and is mindful.

His earlier perception of pīti and pleasure born of concentration ceases.

At that time, there arises the perception of equanimous happiness.

Thus, one training leads to the arising of perception, and another to its cessation.

This is the training, the Blessed One said.

Again, Poṭṭhapāda, with the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous disappearance of joy and grief,

he enters and remains in the fourth jhāna, which has neither pain nor pleasure and purity of mindfulness due to equanimity.

His earlier perception of equanimous happiness ceases.

At that time, there arises the perception of neither-pain-nor-pleasure.

Thus, one training leads to the arising of perception, and another to its cessation.

This is the training, the Blessed One said.

Again, Poṭṭhapāda, by completely surpassing perceptions of form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not attending to perceptions of diversity, a disciple enters and remains in the dimension of infinite space.

His earlier perception of form ceases.

At that time, there arises the perception of infinite space.

Thus, one training leads to the arising of perception, and another to its cessation.

This is the training, the Blessed One said.

Again, Poṭṭhapāda, by completely surpassing the dimension of infinite space, he enters and remains in the dimension of infinite consciousness.

His earlier perception of infinite space ceases.

At that time, there arises the perception of infinite consciousness.

Thus, one training leads to the arising of perception, and another to its cessation.

This is the training, the Blessed One said.

Again, Poṭṭhapāda, by completely surpassing the dimension of infinite consciousness, he enters and remains in the dimension of nothingness.

His earlier perception of infinite consciousness ceases.

At that time, there arises the perception of nothingness.

Thus, one training leads to the arising of perception, and another to its cessation.

This is the training, the Blessed One said.

Again, Poṭṭhapāda, by completely surpassing the dimension of nothingness, he enters and remains in the dimension of neither-perception-nor-non-perception.

His earlier perception of nothingness ceases.

At that time, there arises the perception of neither-perception-nor-non-perception.

Thus, one training leads to the arising of perception, and another to its cessation.

This is the training, the Blessed One said.

When, Poṭṭhapāda, a disciple here becomes one with perception, from here to there, from there to there, gradually reaches the summit of perception.

Standing at the summit of perception, it occurs to him: Intending is worse for me, not intending is better.

If I were to intend and fabricate, these and those... If perceptions were to cease, and other gross perceptions were to arise; perhaps I would neither construct nor form intentions.

Thus, he neither intends nor constructs.

As he does not intend or construct, those perceptions cease, and other coarser perceptions do not arise.

He enters upon and dwells in the cessation of perception and feeling.

Thus, Poṭṭhapāda, this is how the gradual cessation of perception and awareness is attained.

What do you think, Poṭṭhapāda, have you ever heard of such a gradual cessation of perception and awareness before?

No, sir.

This is how I know what the Blessed One has said: When a disciple here becomes perceptive, from here to there, from there to there, he gradually reaches the summit of perception.

Standing on the summit of perception, it occurs to him: constructing is worse for me, not constructing is better.

If I were to construct and form intentions, these perceptions would cease, and other gross perceptions would arise; perhaps I should neither construct nor form intentions.

Thus, he neither constructs nor forms intentions, and as he does not construct or form intentions, those perceptions cease, and other gross perceptions do not arise.

He experiences cessation.

Thus, Poṭṭhapāda, this is how the gradual cessation of perception and awareness is attained.

So it is, Poṭṭhapāda.

Does the Blessed One describe only one summit of perception, or does he describe many summits of perception?

I describe both one summit of perception and many summits of perception, Poṭṭhapāda.

But how, sir, does the Blessed One describe both one summit of perception and many summits of perception?

As one experiences cessation, so I describe the summit of perception.

Thus, I describe both one summit of perception and many summits of perception, Poṭṭhapāda.

Does perception arise first, followed by knowing, or does knowing arise first, followed by perception, or do perception and knowing arise simultaneously?

Perception arises first, Poṭṭhapāda, followed by knowing, and with the arising of perception, there is the arising of knowing.

One knows thus: Because of this, knowing has arisen for me.

This is how it should be known, Poṭṭhapāda, that perception arises first, followed by knowing, and with the arising of perception, there is the arising of knowing.

Is perception a person's self, or is perception one thing and self another?

What do you think, Poṭṭhapāda, what is your self?

I consider my self as physical, composed of the four great elements, feeding on physical food.

If your self were physical, composed of the four great elements, feeding on physical food, then your perception would be one thing and your self another.

Thus, it should be known by this method that perception is one thing and self another.

Even though the physical self, composed of the four great elements, feeding on physical food, remains, in this person other perceptions arise and cease.

This is how it should be known by this method that perception is one thing and self another.

I consider my self as mind-made, complete with all parts, not lacking any faculty.

If your self were mind-made, complete with all parts, not lacking any faculty, then your perception would be one thing and your self another.

Thus, it should be known by this method that perception is one thing and self another.

Even though the mind-made self, complete with all parts, not lacking any faculty, remains, in this person other perceptions arise and cease.

This is how it should be known by this method that perception is one thing and self another.

I consider my self as formless, made of perception.

If your self were formless, made of perception, then your perception would be one thing and your self another.

Thus, it should be known by this method that perception is one thing and self another.

Even though the formless self, made of perception, remains, in this person other perceptions arise and cease.

This is how it should be known by this method that perception is one thing and self another.

Is it possible for me to know whether perception is a person's self or perception is one thing and self another?

It is difficult to know that, Poṭṭhapāda, for another.

With a certain view, with a certain preference, with a certain liking, with a certain practice, with a certain teacher: Perception is a person's self, or Perception is one thing, the self another.

If, sir, with a certain view, with a certain preference, with a certain liking, with a certain practice, with a certain teacher, it is difficult for me to know: Perception is a person's self, or Perception is one thing, the self another; what about, sir, The world is eternal, this alone is true, everything else is wrong?

This, Poṭṭhapāda, has not been declared by me: The world is eternal, this alone is true, everything else is wrong.

What about, sir, The world is not eternal, this alone is true, everything else is wrong?

This too, Poṭṭhapāda, has not been declared by me: The world is not eternal, this alone is true, everything else is wrong.

What about, sir, The world is finite...

the world is infinite...

the soul is the same as the body...

the soul is one thing, the body another...

a Tathāgata exists after death...

a Tathāgata does not exist after death...

a Tathāgata both exists and does not exist after death...

a Tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist after death, this alone is true, everything else is wrong?

This too, Poṭṭhapāda, has not been declared by me: A Tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist after death, this alone is true, everything else is wrong.

Why, sir, has this not been declared by you?

Because, Poṭṭhapāda, this is not beneficial, not related to the fundamentals of the spiritual life, does not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowing, to enlightenment, to Nibbāna.

Therefore, I have not declared it.

What, sir, have you declared?

This is suffering, Poṭṭhapāda, this I have declared.

This is the origin of suffering, Poṭṭhapāda, this I have declared.

This is the cessation of suffering, Poṭṭhapāda, this I have declared.

This is the path leading to the cessation of suffering, Poṭṭhapāda, this I have declared.

Why, sir, have you declared this?

Because, Poṭṭhapāda, this is beneficial, related to the fundamentals of the spiritual life, leads to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowing, to enlightenment, to Nibbāna.

Therefore, I have declared it.

So it is, Blessed One, so it is, Fortunate One.

Now, sir, the Blessed One may think it's time to leave.

Then the Blessed One rose from his seat and left. After the Blessed One had left, those wanderers surrounded Poṭṭhapāda the wanderer, showering him with words of indignation: Just as the ascetic Gotama speaks, so you praise him: So it is, Blessed One, so it is, Fortunate One.

But we do not know any single doctrine taught by the ascetic Gotama: The world is eternal or The world is not eternal... A Tathāgata exists after death or A Tathāgata does not exist after death...

Poṭṭhapāda the wanderer replied to those wanderers: I too do not know any single doctrine taught by the ascetic Gotama: The world is eternal or The world is not eternal...

A Tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist after death; but the ascetic Gotama presents the true and proper path, the stability of the Dhamma, the orderliness of the Dhamma.

How could someone like me not praise the well-spoken words of the ascetic Gotama? Whether it is said, the soul is one thing, the body another, or the Tathagata exists after death, or the Tathagata does not exist after death, or the Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death, or the Tathāgata neither exists nor does not exist after death.

Thus, when I was addressed, venerable sir, I said to those wanderers: I too, sirs, do not know any teaching of the ascetic Gotama that is one-sided, such as the world is eternal, or the world is not eternal, ...

or the Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death; but indeed, the ascetic Gotama presents the true and correct path as it actually is, the stability of the Dhamma, the orderliness of the Dhamma.

Since he presents the true and correct path as it actually is, the stability of the Dhamma, the orderliness of the Dhamma, how could I not praise the well-spoken words of the ascetic Gotama as well-spoken?

All those wanderers, Poṭṭhapāda, are blind and sightless; you alone among them are sighted.

For I have taught the Dhamma that is one-sided and also the Dhamma that is many-sided.

And what, Poṭṭhapāda, have I taught as the many-sided Dhamma? The world is eternal, the world is not eternal, the world is finite, the world is infinite, the soul and the body are the same, the soul is one thing and the body another, the Tathagata exists after death, the Tathagata does not exist after death, the Tathagata both exists and does not exist after death, the Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death: this, Poṭṭhapāda, I have taught as the many-sided Dhamma.

And why have I taught the many-sided Dhamma?

Because it is not connected with the goal, does not relate to the fundamentals of the holy life, does not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowing, to enlightenment, to Nibbāna.

Therefore, I have taught the many-sided Dhamma.

And what, Poṭṭhapāda, have I taught as the one-sided Dhamma? This is suffering, this is the origin of suffering, this is the cessation of suffering, this is the path leading to the cessation of suffering: this, Poṭṭhapāda, I have taught as the one-sided Dhamma.

And why have I taught the one-sided Dhamma? Because it is connected with the goal, relates to the fundamentals of the holy life, leads to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowing, to enlightenment, to Nibbāna.

Therefore, I have taught the one-sided Dhamma.

There are, Poṭṭhapāda, some ascetics and brahmins who hold such a view and belief as this: The self, after death, is happy and free from disease.

When I approached them and asked if they hold this view, they affirmed it.

Then I asked if they have seen the happy world or know the path to it, or have they even experienced for a moment that supreme happiness, to which they replied no.

Then I asked if they know or have heard from those who have reached that happy state, to which they also replied no.

So, Poṭṭhapāda, what do you think? Isn't their statement unfounded? Indeed, venerable sir, their statement is unfounded.

It's like a man, Poṭṭhapāda, who desires the most beautiful woman in the country but when asked if he knows her name, clan, or whether he has seen her, he says no.

O man, do you know whether the woman of the country you desire and greed for is a Kshatriya, Brahmin, Vaishya, or Shudra?

When asked, he would say no.

They would then say to him: O man, do you know the name, clan, whether she is tall, short, of medium height, black, fair, or of mango-like complexion, or in which village, town, or city she lives?

When asked, he would say no.

They would then say to him: O man, do you desire and greed for one whom you neither know nor see?

When asked, he would say yes.

What do you think, Poṭṭhapāda, wouldn't the speech of that man be unfounded?

Certainly, lord, the speech of that man would be unfounded.

In the same way, Poṭṭhapāda, those ascetics and Brahmins who claim: The self is perfectly happy, free from disease, and immortal after death.

When I approach them and ask: Is it true that you venerable ones hold such a view?

And if they answer yes, then I ask: Do you, venerable ones, knowing and seeing, dwell in a world of perfect happiness?

And if they answer no, then I ask: Do you, venerable ones, for even a night, a day, half a night, or half a day, perceive yourselves as perfectly happy?

And if they answer no, then I ask: Do you, venerable ones, know the path and practice leading to the world of perfect happiness?

And if they answer no, then I ask: Do you, venerable ones, hear the voices of gods who have attained to the world of perfect happiness, proclaiming: You are well-practiced, friends, you are straightly-practiced, friends, for the realization of the world of perfect happiness; for we too, friends, having practiced in the same way, have attained to the world of perfect happiness? And if they answer no, what do you think, Poṭṭhapāda, wouldn't the speech of those ascetics and Brahmins be unfounded?

Certainly, lord, the speech of those ascetics and Brahmins would be unfounded.

Just as if a man were to build a staircase for a palace at a crossroads without knowing whether the palace faces east, west, north, or south, or whether it is high, low, or of medium height.

And when asked if he knows or sees the palace for which he is building the staircase, he would say yes. What do you think, Poṭṭhapāda, wouldn't the speech of that man be unfounded?

Certainly, lord, the speech of that man would be unfounded.

In the same way, Poṭṭhapāda, those ascetics and Brahmins who claim: The self is perfectly happy, free from disease, and immortal after death. When I approach them and ask: Is it true that you venerable ones hold such a view?

And if they answer yes, then I ask: Do you, venerable ones, knowing and seeing, dwell in a world of perfect happiness?

And if they answer no, then I ask: Do you, venerable ones, for even a night, a day, half a night, or half a day, perceive yourselves as perfectly happy?

And if they answer no, then I ask: Do you, venerable ones, know the path and practice leading to the world of perfect happiness?

And if they answer no, then I ask: Do you, venerable ones, hear the voices of gods who have attained to the world of perfect happiness, proclaiming: You are well-practiced, friends, you are straightly-practiced, friends, for the realization of the world of perfect happiness; for we too, friends, having practiced in the same way, have attained to the world of perfect happiness?

And if they answer no, what do you think, Poṭṭhapāda, wouldn't the speech of those ascetics and Brahmins be unfounded?

Certainly, lord, the speech of those ascetics and Brahmins would be unfounded.

There are, Poṭṭhapāda, three acquisitions of self for me: the gross acquisition of self, the mind-made acquisition of self, and the formless acquisition of self.

And what, Poṭṭhapāda, is the gross acquisition of self?

It is the one with form, composed of the four great elements, feeding on physical food; this is called the gross acquisition of self. And what is the mind-made acquisition of self?

It is the one with form, mind-made, complete in all its parts, not deficient in any sense organ; this is called the mind-made acquisition of self. And what is the formless acquisition of self? It is the one without form, made of perception; this is called the formless acquisition of self.

And, Poṭṭhapāda, I teach the Dhamma for the abandoning of the gross acquisition of self: As you practice, defiling qualities will be abandoned, and wholesome qualities will grow, leading to the fulfillment of wisdom and the attainment of full knowing in this very life, living having realized it with your own insight.

It might occur to you, Poṭṭhapāda, that Defiling qualities will be abandoned, and wholesome qualities will grow, leading to the fulfillment of wisdom and the attainment of full knowing in this very life, living having realized it with your own insight, but this living is suffering.

This should not be seen in that way, Poṭṭhapāda.

For defiling qualities will indeed be abandoned, and wholesome qualities will grow, leading to the fulfillment of wisdom and the attainment of full knowing in this very life, living having realized it with your own insight, and there will be joy, pīti, serenity, mindfulness, clear knowing, and blissful living.

And, Poṭṭhapāda, I teach the Dhamma for the abandoning of the mind-made acquisition of self... And, Poṭṭhapāda, I teach the Dhamma for the abandoning of the formless acquisition of self...

If others were to ask us, Poṭṭhapāda, What is that gross acquisition of self for whose abandoning you teach the Dhamma, so that defiling qualities will be abandoned, and wholesome qualities will grow, leading to the fulfillment of wisdom and the attainment of full knowing in this very life, living having realized it with your own insight? we would answer them in this way: This is that gross acquisition of self for whose abandoning we teach the Dhamma...

If others were to ask us, Poṭṭhapāda, What is that mind-made acquisition of self for whose abandoning you teach the Dhamma, so that defiling qualities will be abandoned, and wholesome qualities will grow, leading to the fulfillment of wisdom and the attainment of full knowing in this very life, living having realized it with your own insight?

we would answer them in this way: This is that mind-made acquisition of self for whose abandoning we teach the Dhamma...

In your very presence, having directly known and realized the Dhamma for yourselves, you will live having attained and fully realized it. If others, Poṭṭhapāda, were to ask us: What then, friend, is that formless acquisition of self for which you teach the Dhamma to be abandoned, so that defiling qualities in those who practice accordingly will be abandoned, wholesome qualities will grow, and wisdom will be fully developed, having directly known and realized the Dhamma for yourselves, you will live having attained and fully realized it?

We would answer them in this way: This, friend, is that formless acquisition of self for which we teach the Dhamma to be abandoned, so that defiling qualities in those who practice accordingly will be abandoned, wholesome qualities will grow, and wisdom will be fully developed, having directly known and realized the Dhamma for yourselves, you will live having attained and fully realized it.

What do you think, Poṭṭhapāda, does not such a statement make perfect sense?

Certainly, venerable sir, such a statement makes perfect sense.

Just as, Poṭṭhapāda, if a man were to build a staircase for the purpose of ascending a palace, right at the base of that palace.

And they were to ask him: Good man, do you know the palace for which you are building the staircase, whether it is in the east, south, west, or north, whether it is high, low, or of medium height?

He would answer: This, friend, is the palace for which I am building the staircase, right at the base of that palace.

What do you think, Poṭṭhapāda, does not the statement of that man make perfect sense?

Certainly, venerable sir, the statement of that man makes perfect sense.

In the same way, Poṭṭhapāda, if others were to ask us: What then, friend, is that material acquisition of self...

What then, friend, is that mind-made acquisition of self...

What then, friend, is that formless acquisition of self for which you teach the Dhamma to be abandoned, so that defiling qualities in those who practice accordingly will be abandoned, wholesome qualities will grow, and wisdom will be fully developed, having directly known and realized the Dhamma for yourselves, you will live having attained and fully realized it?

We would answer them in this way: This, friend, is that formless acquisition of self for which we teach the Dhamma to be abandoned, so that defiling qualities in those who practice accordingly will be abandoned, wholesome qualities will grow, and wisdom will be fully developed, having directly known and realized the Dhamma for yourselves, you will live having attained and fully realized it.

What do you think, Poṭṭhapāda, does not such a statement make perfect sense?

Certainly, venerable sir, such a statement makes perfect sense.

Thus said, Citta Hatthisāriputta addressed the Blessed One: Venerable sir, at a time when the material acquisition of self exists, the mind-made acquisition of self is futile, the formless acquisition of self is futile; or at that time, the material acquisition of self is true.

At a time when the mind-made acquisition of self exists, the material acquisition of self is futile, the formless acquisition of self is futile; or at that time, the mind-made acquisition of self is true.

At a time when the formless acquisition of self exists, the material acquisition of self is futile, the mind-made acquisition of self is futile; or at that time, the formless acquisition of self is true.

Citta, at a time when the material acquisition of self exists, it does not go by the designation of a mind-made acquisition of self, nor does it go by the designation of a formless acquisition of self; it goes only by the designation of a material acquisition of self at that time.

At a time when the mind-made acquisition of self exists, it does not go by the designation of a material acquisition of self, nor does it go by the designation of a formless acquisition of self; it goes only by the designation of a mind-made acquisition of self at that time.

At a time when the formless acquisition of self exists, it does not go by the designation of a material acquisition of self, nor does it go by the designation of a mind-made acquisition of self; it goes only by the designation of a formless acquisition of self at that time.

If they were to ask you, Citta: Were you in the past, were you not in the past; will you be in the future, will you not be in the future; are you now, are you not now?

How would you answer?

If they were to ask me, venerable sir, in that way, I would answer... You were in the past, you will not be in the future; you are now, you are not not here.

Thus asked, I, sir, would answer: I was in the past, I was not not there; I will be in the future, I will not not be; I am here now, I am not not here.

If, Citta, they were to ask you: The self you had in the past, is that true self, and the future and present selves are false?

The self you will have in the future, is that the true self, and the past and present selves are false?

The self you have now, is that the true self, and the past and future selves are false?

How would you answer?

If, sir, they were to ask me: The self you had in the past, is that the true self, and the future and present selves are false.

The self you will have in the future, is that the true self, and the past and present selves are false.

The self you have now, is that the true self, and the past and future selves are false.

Thus asked, I, sir, would answer: The self I had in the past was the true self at that time, the future and present selves are false.

The self I will have in the future will be the true self at that time, the past and present selves are false.

The self I have now is the true self, the past and future selves are false.

Thus asked, I, sir, would answer.

Just so, Citta, when there is a physical self at a certain time, it is not considered a mental self or a formless self at that time.

It is considered a physical self.

When there is a mental self...

when there is a formless self, it is not considered a physical self or a mental self; it is considered a formless self.

Just as, Citta, from a cow comes milk, from milk comes curd, from curd comes butter, from butter comes ghee, from ghee comes the cream of ghee. When there is milk, it is not considered curd, butter, ghee, or the cream of ghee; it is considered milk.

When there is curd...

butter...

ghee...

the cream of ghee, it is not considered milk, curd, butter, or ghee; it is considered the cream of ghee.

Just so, Citta, when there is a physical self... a mental self...

a formless self, it is not considered a physical self or a mental self; it is considered a formless self.

These, Citta, are worldly conventions, expressions, terms of speech, designations, which the Tathagata uses without attaching to them.

Upon hearing this, the wanderer Poṭṭhapāda said to the Blessed One: Magnificent, sir, magnificent, sir.

Just as if someone were to set upright what was overturned, to reveal what was hidden, to show the way to one who was lost, or to carry a lamp into the dark so that those with eyes could see forms; in the same way, the Dhamma has been made clear in many ways by the Blessed One.

I go for refuge to the Blessed One, the Dhamma, and the Sangha.

May the Blessed One remember me as a lay follower who has gone for refuge from today forward for life.

And Citta Hatthisāriputta said to the Blessed One: Magnificent, sir, magnificent, sir.

Just as if someone were to set upright what was overturned, to reveal what was hidden, to show the way to one who was lost, or to carry a lamp into the dark so that those with eyes could see forms; in the same way, the Dhamma has been made clear in many ways by the Blessed One.

I go for refuge to the Blessed One, the Dhamma, and the Sangha.

May I receive the going forth in the presence of the Blessed One, may I receive the higher ordination.

Citta, the son of an elephant trainer, received the going forth and the higher ordination in the presence of the Blessed One.

Not long after his full ordination, venerable Citta, the son of an elephant trainer, being diligent, ardent, and resolute in his practice, soon realized for himself the ultimate goal of the holy life for the sake of which sons of good families rightly go forth from home life into homelessness.

He directly knew Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being. Thus, he known.

And venerable Citta, the son of an elephant trainer, became another one of the arahants.

The Poṭṭhapāda Sutta is finished.